Wednesday, February 20, 2013

The only real fact: More guns DO = more gun violence

 

This post from Anonymous on Facebook… an organization that is comprised of many people, and which I’ve agreed with and cheered multiple times. It is for this reason that I’m stunned to see them post something as insane as a rant from the average TeaPartier. I first saw it over my phone where it’s a little tl;dr for a small screen. But I can’t help but feel that this was some seriously ill timing for them to have such a sad argument on such a sensitive topic, when there’s already enough crazies screaming against the gun control we never ever see here in the US. The kids’ corpses aren’t even dead yet. Crazy shit here, by the looks of it, and completely in the fallacious post hoc ergo propter hoc argumentative reasoning. As usual, my thoughts are written within it in [bold, red, and in brackets].


What happens when governments disarm their citizens? [depends on the government, actually, and isn't even remotely the issue here in America since we can't even talk about the slightest legislation here.]

-In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. [By then, they were already on their way to genocide]
>From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated [Okay...]
-In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. [And...]
-Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated. [And now we've crossed the Godwin line.]
-China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated [Actually even with guns they'd have been exterminated. They were using tanks.]
-Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. [Actually that genocide, like many listed here, was already well under way before the disarming of guns]
-Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. [Again, a hate that was already well under way before any disarming.]
-Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. [Blah blah blah...]
-Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million. [56 million killed by gun control? Are you sure about that? Seems to me they were killed because of hate and bigotry.]

{Editor: You can argue about the numbers, but the point here is that disarmed citizens are vulnerable [Seems to me they're vulnerable with or without guns], and that there are many historical examples of disarmed citizens being killed and oppressed by their own government. [Funny, we're not talking about worldwide, nor are we talking about disarming the citizens of our country. At all. Although gun people keep trying desperately to make it seem that way.] The excuse given by authorities that they need to take guns away from citizens in order to lower crime rates is not supported by facts. [So it's not a fact that crazy people not being able to pick up an assault rifle from Walmart like it's a bottle of soda doesn't make people safer?] Even if a government does not turn on its own citizens after disarming them, people are less safe – because unarmed citizens are easy targets to criminals. [I've seen many cases where them having one makes them less safe. We'll get to that.] Over and over again, it has been clearly shown that taking guns away from citizens does not lead to a decrease in crime but rather a dramatic increase.] [Actually, more guns clearly shows more gun violence. That is an absolute fact you seem to be ignoring. The other fact you're ignoring is simply what happens when you arm people because it makes profit, not caring about what those guns in the general populi causes to happen. Like the deaths of 20 innocent children. Because any crazy can easily buy rapid-fire assault arms now.]

INNOCENTS BETRAYED – The TRUE story of GUN CONTROL WORLDWIDE (Documentary – 58 Mins) - http://youtu.be/vAU9AJfttls

You won’t see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians disseminating this information. Which means oooooo a conspiracy! You know what other info you won’t hear from politicians or the media? Other info that’s also irrelevant. Because nobody is talking about disarmament of the United States citizens. At all. You do hear about, for example, NY saying large sodas are not legal to drink. People here don’t put up with being told such things. They hear about it and make a ruckus. But with guns, we can’t even talk about maybe it not being a good idea for there to be checkless gun sales for anybody without you people making us out as Nazis trying to strip guns of those we want to round up into camps. Are you fucking kidding me?] Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives [very rarely, while much more often causing harm, which you're also failing to report] and property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens[a "fact" we have heard repeated to us since the beginning of time. We know, but it doesn't take away that more guns = more gun violence]. Take note my fellow Americans, before it’s too late! [Too late for what... for you to blow a gasket over a non-existent issue? It's already too late.] The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them of this history lesson.[The "history lesson" of irrelevant facts that they already blather, just like you're doing, causing a complete muddying of the discussion? Dont' worry, everyone already does. The real question is when can we have a reasonable discussion without you people doing this?] With guns, we are ‘citizens’. Without them, we are ‘subjects’. [I have no gun. I am simply a citizen without a gun, not a subject. If I had a gun and the government decided to come after me, I'd be equally fucked. But with a gun, I'd be an untrained person with a gun I don't know how to use, and more at threat of hurting someone than without it, but not much safer. Citizens who are trained with them (which is what I want required) would still possibly be more of a threat since they too could cause accidents. People with guns rushing onto a scene often cause more fear and danger than they do saving... even the cops fall into this category. You people like to say guns don't kill people... people with guns do. But I'd like to remind you that people with guns don't ake things safer... trained people with might make things safer but might not. Stop fooling yourselves with absolutes.] 

During WWII the Japanese decided not to invade America because they knew most Americans were ARMED! [They decided not to arm America because they knew it's a silly thing to invade. Something America didn't think about when they tried taking over foreign countries. Armed or not, it's a crazy waste of resources to invade someone overseas. To think it's because we were armed it just stupid.] If you value your freedom, please spread this antigun-control message to all of your friends. [If you value facts and reasoning, don't. Guess which side will win... ah yes, those who'll pass this hysteria-driven drivel on because they're stupid and scared. You know, a combination that makes everything so much better. Especially when they're stupid, scared, and armed.] 

-SWITZERLAND ISSUES EVERY HOUSEHOLD A GUN!
-SWITZERLAND’S GOVERNMENT TRAINS EVERY ADULT THEY ISSUE A RIFLE.
-SWITZERLAND HAS THE LOWEST GUN RELATED CRIME RATE OF ANY CIVILIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!!!

[The key word here is: trained. People here don't want to be trained. They just want to be armed. Switzerland won't give arms to criminals or crazy people, I assure you. All we're talking about in America is not letting crazy people buy a gun as easily as they can a box of tissues, and you're making us out to be a fascist regime for not wanting our kids killed so easily in our schools.]

IT’S A NO BRAINER! [No, it's a brainer. PLEASE use some brains!!! It's not as easy as you want to make it out to be. Just having no guns does not mean your government is going to kill you or that you won't have more violence. But just not having guns so easily dispersed everywhere to any idiot will mean not as much gun violence. That part is a no brainer.] DON’T LET OUR GOVERNMENT WASTE MILLIONS OF OUR TAX DOLLARS IN AN EFFORT TO MAKE ALL LAW ABIDING CITIZENS AN EASY TARGET. [Which nobody in our government has even remotely come close to suggesting, you paranoid lunatic.]

Spread the word everywhere you can that you are a firm believer in the 2nd Amendment! [Just the part of the 2nd Amendment that reads that whole thing about "shall not be infringed"? Because there's more to that amendment. That being that it be a "well regulated militia" that makes gun rights necessary. Guess what happened when we had militias... we had no regulation. People with guns formed militias not to protect "the security of the free state," but instead inflicted terror onto the minorities of our land, making it necessary for us to disband them and instead issue a military. That  military is well regulated and trained and protects us. So simply referring to the 2nd Amendment as something you believe in hardly supports your argument that any idiot anywhere should be allowed to have any kind of gun they want. You are insane to think that it does.]

It’s time to speak loud before they try to silence and disarm us. [Who? Who is trying to silence and disarm you? We're just asking for training and a background check to be necessary first. That's all!] You’re not imagining it, history shows that governments always manipulate tragedies to attempt to disarm the people. [And yet, you ARE imagining that to be even close to the case here! When we can't even get people to allow us to NOT have guns loose in our bars, where alcohol is consumed, or keep them out of our schools, you have no danger that they're going to be ripped out of the hands of citizens everywhere. Are you fucking out of your mind??? And then this clever little shit was written into the post...]
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Up next on MSNBC: the 40th person of the day that will come on air, cry because they lost a family member in a shooting, then immediately call for a gun ban

[People have come onto the air crying about the loss of their children. Let's make fun of them. Guess what they didn't do. They didn't call for a gun ban. They didn't call for guns to be ripped out of the hands of law abiding citizens. They just want some sane legislation so that they're not as easy to buy as a box of fucking Pop Tarts!]
Up next on CNN, we will take advantage of this terrible tragedy to push our anti-gun agenda. [In absolutely no way whatsoever. The first words I heard was some defensive gun asshole, like you, saying that how dare we try to politicize this. How dare we not want our kids killed by crazy people! So quickly you're making us, the ones suffering the loss of children, out to be the real threat because we lead to mass genocide? And somehow that's not supposed to be crazy at all! Why? Because we have quotes!]
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“Gun control has cleared the way for seven major genocides since 1915, in which governments gone bad murdered 56,000,000 persons, including millions of children.” -Aaron Zelman of Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership
[Gun control doesn't kill people. Oppressive governments do. See how stupid that argument sounds? Because it's being thrown right back at you. The other argument you people use is to tell us that without guns, people will find other ways to hurt people. But have you noticed nobody's suggesting that without guns people can find other ways to fight against their oppressive governments? You know why? Because guns make a person much more able to kill than knives. Meaning, as I just said... more guns = more violence. That is the one easily unavoidable fact stated within this entire post, and I'm the one who stated it.]
In the 20th Century:
• Governments murdered four times as many civilians as were killed in all the international and domestic wars combined.
[Wait, they did it in their own domestic wars, so that's not even a well stated factoid. Because now you have to add the citizens murdered by governments to the totals you just said it outnumbered, which is mathematically impossible.]
• Governments murdered millions more people than were killed by common criminals. [And so you want to make sure it doesn't happen again. But it's totally wrong for us to take any action to make sure someone can't just get a gun as easily as a pair of new jeans and shoot up another Kindergarten class? Because that makes us the evil fascists?" And we're supposed to take this post seriously? And the rest of this is just more of the same...]

How could governments kill so many people? The governments had the power – and the people, the victims, were unable to resist. The victims were unarmed. View the graph below:

The JPFO Gun Control/Genocide Chart
http://jpfo.org/pdf02/genocide-chart.pdf (via Anonymous)

Anonymous, love ya, love some of the stuff you’ve done, but have to majorly disagree with this. I’m NOT calling for gun bans. I’m not calling for guns to be ripped from the hands of law abiding citizens. I am, however, sick of having to remind people of that. There is nothing about the 2nd Amendment that stands against there being legislation on guns. Nothing at all. There is plenty of reason for us to not want our kids shot, or crazy people to be armed.

Finally, I can produce a factoid graphic list too, and it’ll shoot down your entire argument into one giant post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. Do the following countries look like they’re trying to kill their citizens? No.

You may call this misleading, and it kind of is. That’s the point. The issue is not as simple as you’d like it to be. It’s not that simply having tougher gun laws will mean violence disappears. We know this. But right now anybody can get a gun with incredible ease, leaving schools vulnerable to any crazy person shooting them up. And to want to do something about it, to at least make an effort, makes people go apeshit trying to call us the evil ones, trying to say we’re the danger, screaming hysterics like this post just did.

As I’ve said, it’s not disarmament that causes genocide. It’s hate. Hate disarming people is as dangerous as hate armed, and in our country we had lots of hateful people armed. Think that’s not still an issue? Think again:

I really don’t people like this having guns.

At what point can we have this as a discussion with reason? How many more schools must be shot up before that’s possible? Before you stop the same mantras that are meaningless. You tell us gun laws only take guns from the law abiding people. All you’re saying, then, is there’s nothing that can be done so don’t do anything. Our kids are being shot and killed and you think we’re going to sit and do nothing? Because if we do, we are the crazy ones?

Give that at least some sane thought. PLEASE!!!